Glamour by Jay » Glamour photography tips and tricks from Jay Kilgore

I’m still with ya!

Hey all,

I’m still with ya. I know I need to update, I’m working on a few things. My girls have been home less than a week, so we’re all doing the close lovey dovey stuff, should wear off by saturday and I’ll be back to work.

Just a quick update:

I now see why I stopped doing tfcd shoots. Since starting my book idea, I started doing tfcd model shoots. In that time, I’ve had four “models” change their minds about modeling (one was really good at it and had potential) another two decide they don’t want to shoot nudes and want any artistic nude shots removed! One did so because she claimed her mommy found out (Her husband sent me an email asking me to take the one photo down, although you can’t even tell it’s her lol) and another model contacted me just the other day. The model who contacted me the other day, she’s a real sweetheart, so I took them down since I didn’t want anything to happen to her, but man does that put a damper on what I do!

“Models” don’t understand that a free shoot, isn’t really free! it costs the photographer money in ways they’ll never really apprecieate. Most models think a shoot is done once they leave, that’s when the real work begins.

My new years resolution? no more free shoots again! when I was charging, I never had this problem. Crazy that I only have this problem when doing free shoots, models that pay, show up on time and they know what they’re getting themselves into.

Who’s going to take the stand with me? When I did this a few years ago, two photogs took the agreement, both were back to tfcd shoots inside of a month. I kept it going and they were jealous lol.


MikeF - Man – trades can suck. I mentioned earlier how if I want to use the work in a project I envision I always pay the model even if it is only an honorarium. But even so, when certain events occur I’d still not use the images if requested. So, I’d be out the money and the images whereas in a trade I’d only be out the images.

Jay – face it. You’re a good guy and when events occur outside of the models control you’d probably not use the images anyway.

Life is too short and there are other models. Still, to be developing a book and have models pull out must really suck. All of that wasted time and effort BUT Mommy and Husband? I’d rather not get the phone calls even if I had a right to use the images.

Even with a specific ironclad contract, I’d still consider the models desires as would you. Now, if it had gone to press, weeellll that is why I have lawyers :) I’m not certain that in a trade, particularly unwritten, you’d have the same legal standing that you would if you paid the model and had a signed release. If you charge the model for shooting and then use the image for your own purposes the legal ramifications can be even more murky.

I guess the real answer for trades you want to use in a commercial project is to shoot enough models you have backup in case some later choose to drop out; then, you get to be a good guy without jeopardizing your own project.

Tough all around really.

admin - Totally agree! trades can suck. Every now and then, you can find a good trade.

If I pay a model, that’s that, I’ve paid the model. I can and will do whatever I want to do with the photos. On a trade, I’m more forgiving. Also, it comes down to if I use the images or not. Many trades, I don’t do anything with the images. There have been a few times that I’ve done trades and use the images.

When the customer is paying you, I’ve always felt they have the final say. Yes, they still sign a release and everything still, but if they’re paying, I want them to return as paying clients hah.

My philosophy regarding the trade is simple, no more!

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Copyright? TFCD?

Pretty much, every TFCD shoot I’ve ever done has bitten me in the ass. About two years ago, I stopped shooting them. I took a six month break from shooting models and have recently gotten back into it. Now I’m faced with whiney crybabies who want the world from me.

My question to you is: do you shoot TFCD?

And what do you do about copyright issues?

From time to time, I shoot TFCD sessions.  I use the TFCD session to play with lighting and settings and angles and all that stuff, so I know what will fly with a paying client, and what won’t. I think this weekend, with one of my favorite models Erika, it will be my last tfcd again. Too much a headache and I’ve noticed that once there’s money involved, everything is that much more professional. When I do TFCD shoots, it appears as if there’s no respect for my job and or business. “Models” feel as if they have the final say. When they pay, they’re a lot more professional and have more invested into the shoot.

What about you?

As far as copyright goes, I own them, in both, my general portrait, as well as model world. When the client is paying, they have a bit more say, but overall, I still own it. I respect my business since it pays my bills, and I demand all who enter through it’s doors to do the same.

Are you less stringent with your copyright?

MikeF - Hi Jay,

You or any photographer specifically owns and hold the copyright once the shot is taken unless there is an agreement otherwise. That is the way the copyright law is written. I do not give it up unless I really have no interest in the photos and even then I think twice.

Ex: You are paid to shoot a boudoir for a private person or couple and by agreement they get the copyright and all the images – you retain nothing. Some Boudoir Photogs do this for the comfort of their clients, since they have no interest in retaining the images or ownership. You simply act as the skilled help. You – by agreement – have given up your copyright claim, then.

TFCD is a different story – you did not and will not give up your copyright. The model is actually the one limited in how the images maybe used. It is best to have some type of agreement ahead of time for both of you. Since it is a trade though, models do have a say in what is shot and how it is shot unless you have made an agreement beforehand. It is after all a trade.

So far, I usually only do print trades as it is more in the nature of what I do. So, I give the models prints of my work including a finished image(s). Most of the prints are quite unfinished though. But then much of my work is done in the darkroom, so CD’s make little sense in my case. I suppose if I shot more with digital, CD’s would be easier to do. I tend to only want 1 or 2 really good to great images out of a shoot and everything-else is dross. Although, I have had an embarrassment of riches during a single shoot which is even worse -for me LOL.

More generally, I pay models, even if just an honorarium, as it eliminates the hassle. My money, my rules. Their money, their rules – except for copyright.

Trades, well, what do you have in mind and be specific. I’ve had models call in friends during a shoot and expect me to shoot them, as well. Generally, I’m accommodating to most model whims since I’ve already set aside the time. Who knows, something good might come out of it but then that’s me. The question I ask myself is if I’m receiving benefit from this shoot or not. If not, then it is up to me to call an end to the shoot or discuss the situation with the other person and see if a resolution can be reached.

admin - Hello friend,

How are you? Have a good holiday?

As always, love your comments! Now that that’s out the way, lets jump into it ;)

Technically, you’re first statement is correct, but, there are a ton of caveats. For example, if the image is captured in an area where photography is not allowed (i.e. any federal building or place where “NO photography allowed” is posted, then a photographer does not own the copyright. Or any place where there’s a reasonable expectation of privacy. Also, with out a model release, you are very limited as to what you can do with photos of a model as you can not profit in any way, shape or form off the likeness of another with out their approval. That means any kind of publishing.

Actually, now that I think about it, NAPP Photoshop user magazine has a really good series on copyright and law. It’s written by famed copyright attorney Ed Greenberg and Jack Renski, former president of the PPA.

RebelPOW - For TC/whatever shoots, I try to be generous and give the model more than she expects. With two exceptions. One, I NEVER give out ‘all images shot’. Why? experience has taught me that the model will always choose the worst image you took to show. The one with the hand cut off, or out of focus? She’ll choose it. And it’s YOUR work being put out on display. NO image goes out without my retouching it in Photoshop. No exceptions.

Regarding copyright. I simply won’t shoot without a model release in advance. And no TF shoot is going to involve me giving up those rights. Too many other models to shoot. And the best models never give you a hassle about release forms. It’s the first timers with the stage mothers that hassle you about it.


alan_smithee_photos - I’ll happily shoot TFCD with the caveats noted above: I’ll select all the images on the CD (and it won’t be 100% of what was shot), and I’ll retain copyright unless specifically relinquished (as in the boudoir case above).

Seems like if you play it this way it *shouldn’t* come back to bite you, at least not too hard. :)

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